Well, the ex-gay story on Channel 4 just aired. I knew all along the story would be slanted, but that it needed to have some response or comment from our side. We spent around 35-40 minutes in the interview for the little bit you see in the story.
For the record, I did NOT say that I had no problem with an organization like First Stone. I said that I had no problem with people going their own journey and that if they were unhappy with who they are, then I understand why that would create a spiritual and psychological crisis. I repeated more than once that a ministry like First Stone's is theologically unnecessary and medically inappropriate.
The story isn't up yet on their website.
I saw the story on Channel 4. I was sincerely disappointed as well, but not for the same reason.
I am disappointed that that you have compromised the Word of God in front of such a large audience. People are really getting tired of the gay-gospel myth that GLBT folks keep spouting. (I find it interesting that it always includes the APA's statement. The APA is not the final authority; they also approved lobotomy for behavior modification)
You said that, in reference to homosexuality in the Bible, it was in regards to the "common military practice of raping all the people that you have conquered". Not only did you do disservice to God's Word, but you made yourself look incredibly foolish. You went on to say that "Bible wasn't talking about the loving relationships we have in the 21st century". Wow. 100% of the Bible verses referring to homosexuality condemn it in any form. What changed? It wasn't the Bible that changed, that's for sure.
I suppose if you tell yourself a lie for so long, you begin to believe it. The trouble comes when you are a pastor and tell the same lies to people who are looking for hope. A drowning person will grab at anything to save them; why are you throwing them bricks?
Since you are a pastor, you are held to a greater standard. (James 3:1)
GLBT church people remind me of lawyers looking for loopholes where they may continue to practice their trickery and scams. What most are doing, however, is creating a nice, comfortable place to await judgment. But, since you are a pastor, you should know this, right?
Unless you have become one of the guys described in II Tim 4:3-4.
Posted by: Marcus Brody | July 23, 2008 at 09:53 AM
Dear Dr. Jones,
I am sad to hear that your comments were misrepresented. I had been praying especially that the story would be fair to all rather than slanted. For the record, I did understand that you didn't see groups like ours as necessary and that both theologically and medically you believe we are in error. I got that from the story.
Posted by: Laura Leigh Stanlake | July 24, 2008 at 12:28 PM
Hey Scott: Haven't talked to you since college. And I'm sorry to say that we disagree on this issue. I was on staff at First Stone for 5 years and I have experienced great freedom from my homosexual predispositions. I am married now (not that that's a badge of healing), but I can say that I am now greatly attracted to my wife and long for her sexually...when I would have said just 8 years ago that I had never been attracted to a woman in my life. All I know is that pursuing Jesus' perfect will for my sexuality has brought amazing blessing into my life and I have been anything but harmed for pursuing this healing. I hope we run into one another someday, I'd love to catch up (I know we only had a couple of passing remarks in college...but being on the polar ends of movement like this should count for something) with you and hear about your experience of Jesus in your journey. I pray God's heart to continually manifest itself in your life.
Sincerely in His Service,
Chris Morrison
Posted by: Chris Morrison | July 24, 2008 at 01:37 PM
Dr. Jones,
It's wouldn't be surprising if you were misrepresented. That seems to happen often in news stories regarding religious themes. However, what you posted here does seem to be the same as what was reported. I was hoping that your interpretation of scripture was what they got wrong. I don't believe there is any sound theological basis for what I heard you say in the news clip regarding raping your enemy, etc. Can you enlighten me with the scriptural reference for that? Thanks.
Posted by: Tony Moore | July 26, 2008 at 07:46 PM
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Based on the above scripture and your news interview, how do you biblically justify dividing the meaning of "homosexual" into historical abusive and modern monogamous practices...especially considering that the term "sexually immoral" is already itemized?
Isn't it reasonable-man standard to think that abusive practices could come under "sexually immoral"? And, where the bible speaks about intimate relationships (mostly 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, etc.), isn't it reasonable to think that there'd be something about homosexual relationships if they were acceptable?
And wouldn't it, then, be fair to breakdown the terms "adultery" and "fornication"? Both are commonly practiced in the 21st century and are non-violent. We could divide them into abusive and non-abusive, and claim that anything except rape and sodomy is acceptable. (man!...how do you do it?)
You are a pastor, Dr. Jones. Pastors are not required to be perfect, but they're supposed to be at least a few steps ahead of those they lead. Can we agree on that?
As a pastor, how do you address/preach the following verses in Romans 8?
Romans 8:5-8,12-14
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
From the time of Sodom and Gomorrah till the fairly recent coming out of the closet, homosexuality has been a closed subject. We're talking that for over 3-4,000 years, it has been considered a taboo...a public abomination.
For those same 3-4,000 years, homosexuals have survived. Either they kept their relationships quiet or were celibate; an effeminate male might marry a masculine female...but homosexuals survived.
God created man and woman to procreate. Physical pleasure is an added gift.
Regardless of one's sexuality, following after sexual desire or orientation is purely a physical thing...it's a desire that wants satisfaction, and THAT'S all about the flesh, especially if the purpose doesn't support procreating.
Is there anything in the bible that specifically SUPPORTS homosexuality?
Posted by: Judy | July 27, 2008 at 01:05 AM
Hi Scott,
As your personal friend, co-worker in Christ, and a part of your congregation, I would like to clarify a couple of misrepresentations from some of the responses...
Marcus said, “People are really getting tired of the gay-gospel myth that GLBT folks keep spouting.”
Well, I’m not a GLBT folk, I’m a straight Christian, I’m neither tired nor am I “spouting” anything...which is kind of the point, I have allowed God to transform me by the renewing of my mind and I no longer simply read words off a page, tirelessly beating people over the head with those words, shoving them farther and farther away from God’s hope and freedom...rather, I study and research the entire context, and, this is a really drastic and heretical action, I use my God given brain and heart to discern...you know, “by their fruits you will know them” (Matt 7:20). I DO know you by your fruits, as do I know my many gay Christian friends by their fruits, which is that of the Holy Spirit.
Marcus said, “I suppose if you tell yourself a lie for so long, you begin to believe it. The trouble comes when you are a pastor and tell the same lies to people who are looking for hope. A drowning person will grab at anything to save them; why are you throwing them bricks?”
Thank God, Scott, you are one of the people on this earth who DOES bring hope to people who have been so wounded and beaten down by those very ones who come in God’s name that they want NOTHING to do with God. Bricks? Na, I’ve been there for many months in Cathedral of Hope OKC services and I have seen God move with hope and freedom so powerfully that I am consistently overwhelmed with joy. I am neither a drowning person, nor hopeless, nor am I out of communication or out of touch with God, nor am I emotionally unstable, nor am I unsure of my sexual identity, nor am I a criminal or an idiot or whatever other label anyone might like to put on me...and I am not desperately grabbing at anything. Here’s why I attend Cathedral of Hope OKC – God’s presence/love/hope/freedom/Holy Spirit is there...in the music, in the preaching, in the people.
Marcus said, “GLBT church people remind me of lawyers looking for loopholes where they may continue to practice their trickery and scams. What most are doing, however, is creating a nice, comfortable place to await judgment. But, since you are a pastor, you should know this, right?”
And since you, Marcus, are a Christian, you also should know the judgment which awaits you for putting yourself in the position of God and judging GLBT church people (Luke 6:37).
Laura and Chris: first of all, hi Laura, you remember me (Tammy Guernsey). If the two of you (and others) have found freedom and healing and authenticity through changing your sexual orientation then I have nothing against that whatsoever. People SHOULD be allowed to be their authentic selves, and God IS faithful to always help us find and live out our authentic selves if we seek such. After all, He created us, each and every one, He knows exactly who we are and who we are meant to be..and we were not created to be clones or robots, mimicking one another in ANYTHING. I have rediscovered my authentic self the last 3 years through a series of events, and part of my authentic self is being a straight Christian who unashamedly fellowships, including attending church, with gay Christians, as an equal. What I have a problem with concerning ANYBODY is when authenticity is dictated by another’s standards, or when people try to live up to someone else’s standards of authenticity. That is imprisonment, whether you are gay or straight. Freedom is found in authenticity, and God is all about freedom (Isaiah 61:1-3).
Judy said, “God created man and woman to procreate. Physical pleasure is an added gift.”
Uh oh. Even though I’m straight, so I’m “ok” by the standards of many, I have NOT had any children. I didn’t have children when I was married, though I did have sex for 12 years...the implication that the purpose of sex is for procreation is the kind of mentality that also sets women back. No, I’m not a baby maker, I am a woman with a brain and creativity and a ministry and SO many purposes why God put me on this earth, not a single one of them was to have children. No, I'm not against a woman choosing to have children, or even being called to have children, but that is not the SOLE purpose of sex.
Oh yeah, I enjoyed the sex I had with my husband.
Judy said, “Is there anything in the bible that specifically SUPPORTS homosexuality?"
Jesus specifically addressed many things, I wonder why He said not a single word about homosexuality?
I will close simply with this: when people are so repelled because they hear again and again that they are wrong, that God loves them “BUT they must change….” (an anti-biblical statement by the way), in what way does that represent God’s love?
I am thankful for Scott Jones, whom I consider a personal friend AND a colleague in ministry (I’ve been in ministry for 28 years) because a big part of Scott’s work is about bringing wounded, damaged people BACK to God, and he does a very fine job of that.
Posted by: Tammy Pinkston | July 29, 2008 at 12:35 AM
Tammy,
I'm sorry, but my comment must have been misunderstood...perhaps taken out of context.
And understandably so.
I didn't mean that God created man and woman for sole purpose of procreating. To do so would be pointless.
In context with the scripture prior to it and the treatment that followed, it is a man and a woman whom are needed for the survival of the species.
In Genesis it says that a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife.
The intent or purpose for physical intimacy is to continue giving life. And there's no issue if someone is unable to bear children.
The fact that we can intensely enjoy this activity is an added gift...a blessing.
I see nothing wrong with that statement ~ it shows we have a loving God who wanted us to have fun and enjoy our spouse! So, I would expect you'd enjoy your husband. :D
I'm sorry...perhaps unintended, but your response was more of a distracting ("Here...look at this instead) than an answer.
Two things I asked:
1) how does pastor treat those verses in Romans about following the flesh and following the spirit?
2) Is there anything in the bible that SPECIFICALLY SUPPORTS homosexuality?
I ask that in light of Genesis 2:24 where God specifically says that a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife.
Tammy wrote: "when people are so repelled because they hear again and again that they are wrong, that God loves them “BUT they must change….” (an anti-biblical statement by the way), in what way does that represent God’s love?"
I understand where you're coming from and will make it a personal point to consider that in my thoughts...unfortunately, most don't understand how to love the sinner where they're at yet hate the sin; if we (the Body) had known better how to do that, no doubt things might be different today.
I agree with you. Biblical change comes with spending time with Christ. It is the Holy Spirit who does the changing in us...anything done in our own strength stands the chance of not lasting. We do, however, need to yield to the Holy Spirit's leading.
With respect to change, consider what Jesus said in Matthew 5:28-29
29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Some people are gay and don't know why. I believe God's grace covers that, but that He doesn't accept it as anything but sin. I think homosexuality is an iniquity while ACTING OUT is the abomination. Jesus said that it's not what comes into a man that defiles him, but what comes out.
Jesus didn't say anything specific about domestic abuse either. Maybe it wasn't meant to be an issue (i.e., not exist)?
Posted by: Judy | July 29, 2008 at 04:02 AM
Tammy,
Thank you so much for clarifying my response. My comments made so much more sense after you interpreted them for everyone.
I notice that you didn't clarify my comment about II Tim 4:3-4 that describes ear tickling teachers. Perhaps that was plain enough and didn't need further explanation? Perhaps you didn't take the time to look up the reference, so I'll put paste it here:
2Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Tim 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. (NASB)
Oh, and thanks for judging me for "putting (myself) in the position of God". That was interesting, to say the least.
Posted by: Marcus Brody | July 30, 2008 at 12:07 PM
To GuitPicken61:
Thank you for the link and the generous comments. I would have left this on your site, but it required a membership to post.
http://guitpicken61.vox.com/
Posted by: Scott | July 31, 2008 at 10:53 PM
I am 51, a mother of 3 and grandmother of 3. I have been living as a chaste single for the past 13 years and am beginning to acknowledge that I have bi- tendencies.
BUT rather than entertain it, I see homosexuality as part of the sin nature passed down from Adam, and believe that Satan stole male/female relationships from the beginning of humanity.
I choose to not act out, but rather to nail that sinful disposition to the cross for the sake of Christ.
Sex is sacred.
May God strike us with blindness to the world and open our eyes to see things as HE sees them...not as we want to interpret them for our lusts and convenience.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkCkXU0e75k
Just sharing a link from Christian Apologist Dr. Ravi Zacharias answering a question re: homosexuality, speaking truth in love.
Posted by: Joy | August 05, 2008 at 12:58 AM
Hi Scott. I want to know for sure if you can tell me or any professionally trained person if the bible says in print that a man or woman must get married after they leave their parents house and live on their on. Does God tell them they MUST get married and have kids? Or can we stay single for the rest of our lives, but still have some kind of a sex life? I don't like the idea of arranged marriages or marriages of convienence,either. I thank God I was born in my time period and from my family, no matter how offbeat they are, that I never have to marry someone I may not like. I haven't read every word in the bible yet, if I did I may forget anyway. Thanks--Peace
Posted by: Eudora Simon | August 07, 2008 at 06:25 AM
I just want to go on record as saying that I was trying to have these conversations at OBU 16 years ago. I'm pretty burned out on the topic now, but my point is that Scott did not come to his current positions lightly. He is a Biblical scholar and quoting verses that he contemplated and studied for the last 20 years isn't going to help your argument.
Posted by: Jacob Zimmer | August 18, 2008 at 12:08 PM
(((Scott, while I'm passionately against an active homosexual in church leadership, it seems I attacked you directly. So I am asking your forgiveness because in my passion I lacked love. Our battle is not against flesh and blood, but principalities and powers and rulers of darkness in high places; and the battle is with them...not you. I pray you forgive me and that you could understand that my burden is from the heart of a sister who loves her brother.
We have a person in common, and I connected with your blog through a link on theirs.
Just FYI, for the past month or so, I have been blogging on a Christian News website with respect to the California Same-Sex Marriage ruling and was banned because I spoke openly against the hostility expressed toward homosexuals as individuals. Though I was banned, they never said a word against either what I posted nor me as a person...they couldn't continue their mission of insults with love staring them in the face.
I said that not to pat myself on the back, but to show you where my heart is: against the sin, not the sinner.
God bless you, Scott...may the Lord increase mightily in you.)))
To Jacob:
I am seriously interested in seeing how those conversations at OBU went.
And I would well imagine that Scott didn't get to his present position easily and that he has studied both hard and well. Yet one's belief in God isn't the issue...
James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
From Tammy's post above:
Judy said, “Is there anything in the bible that specifically SUPPORTS homosexuality?"
Jesus specifically addressed many things, I wonder why He said not a single word about homosexuality?
How about Ephesians 5:12? If it's a shame to speak of things people do in secret, can we expect it to be found directly addressed in the Bible?
Ephesians 5:8-17
8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. 14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. 15See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
What was the will of the Lord spoken to Adam and Eve?
Genesis 1:28a And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:
Note the consistency of God's "heart" or intentionality in what He told the Israel exiles in Jeremiah 29:4-7:
4This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: 5"Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. 6Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. 7Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the LORD for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper."
OK...so here's my concern (and BTW, I don't consider myself exempt):
Take the subject of sexual orientation out of the picture:
*How can a pastor (or anyone in church leadership/counsel) engaging in sexual activity outside the boundaries of marriage (i.e., fornication) effectually encourage the youth to abstain and wait for marriage? Or, can he/she engage in adultery and effectively counsel someone on the verge of divorce? How can their life be a witness/testimony?
*Can/will a female pastor accept her own act of aborting as being OK (I don't mean "forgiven" because God forgives; by "OK" I mean "proper")...can she be pro-choice in her living testimony and counsel someone else against abortion, as being a sin based on life-at-conception and Psalm 139?
*Will a pastor who smokes pot for recreational purposes be able to effectively counsel a member of his/her congregation who has a serious drug/alcohol addiction? (Note: this is separate from one who takes medication for a physical ailment.)
Putting sexual orientation back in:
*How can a GLBT pastor (or anyone in church leadership/counsel) engaging in sexual activity outside the boundaries of marriage (i.e., fornication) effectually encourage the youth to abstain and wait for marriage?
It's the same...regardless of straight or gay; but so must be the correction:
The pastor has opportunity to repent and live out their testimony via choosing to live chaste or within marital fidelity with a spouse of the opposite sex.
Why opposite? Well, I did a word search on both "marry" and "marriage" in both KJV and NIV, and could not find one instance that implied same-sex marital unions. Each scripture was gender-specific. Some samples:
Malachi 2:14-15
14Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
15And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
The NIV of 1 Corinthians 7:1-2 says
1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.
2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.
The KJV says
1Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
Aren't these verses gender specific? When reading it in context of surrounding scripture, how can the concept of same-sex be duly applied?
The point is this: anyone sexually active outside the boundaries of marriage is either in fornication or adultery.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
That's God's word...not mine.
The extent of His mercy, grace and love abounds endlessly...
Each of us has our own issues or sins that we deal with.
It's one thing to live and deal with them...to work out our own salvation...
but it's another thing to openly teach them as being acceptable in God's sight.
Posted by: Judy | August 21, 2008 at 12:58 AM
Judy, you are caught in a tautology, but one that many people get caught in.
The word "fornication" simply means immoral sex. The word has not specific content of its own.
So, one must engage in the practices of ethical reasoning to answer what is or is not ethical.
Posted by: Scott | August 21, 2008 at 03:38 PM
Scott,
Will keep this short.
If "marriage" as covered in the Bible is a tautology, then wouldn't that hold true for other doctrines that are consistently presented? Sin nature, salvation, atonement, redemption, even God's attributes...to name a few.
I consider "fornication" as a catch-all phrase for any and all sexual activity conducted outside the framework of marriage. And I believe it carries prophetic connotations that are non-sexual as well.
Considering that eternity is at stake, I personally feel a Christian should err on the side of conservatism in this area. But as with everything, it's between them and God.
Isn't the Word a Christian's final say on what is ethical? Proverbs 3:5-6 confirms this. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall make your paths straight."
There's a man trying to sue Bible publishing companies for emotional distress because of what they print regarding homosexuality. How can anyone say that God doesn't address the issue? And when addressed, there is nothing indicating whether it's ethical or unethical.
Nowhere does the Bible say "Husbands, don't hit your wives". Does that make it ok for husbands to hit their wives? Of course not. And the verse that guides abuse is the passage where Paul tells husband to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it. Where in that verse does it address ANYthing physical?
So, if the logic currently being used to posit homosexuality as acceptable were used in marital relationships, husbands would have every right to hit/abuse their wives.
Posted by: Judy | August 23, 2008 at 02:30 AM
"Marriage" is not a tautology, there was a tautology in your reasoning.
Marriage is a cultural institution constantly evolving.
It only becomes a sacrament of the church, and thus receiving a sacred blessing, rather late in the church's history. In fact, John Boswell's research suggests that the marriage ceremony which the church developed was actually based on a previously existing ceremony used for same-sex couples.
The cultural history of marriage is a very complicated subject, important in these discussions, but not definitive either way.
Posted by: Scott | August 24, 2008 at 03:30 PM
Scott, let this be a holding note. Am in process of responding.
Judy
Posted by: Judy Schworm | August 27, 2008 at 01:38 PM
Paul and malakos and arsenokoites
http://www.apocalipsis.org/difficulties/Malakosandarsenokoites.htm
THE SOURCE AND NT MEANING OF ARSENOKOITAI, WITH IMPLICATIONS
FOR CHRISTIAN ETHICS AND MINISTRY
http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj3h.pdf
Posted by: Judy | September 11, 2009 at 03:45 AM